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Sterling CCC400 (aka "the V6")

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doug-doug the mighy

Member
Engines:
So after completing another hike and spending most of the trip pondering so many things, as you do..., I think I may be approaching my problem a little off. I am starting with a vision and trying to make it fit my needs rather than starting with my needs and finding what is close to my vision...

I make two (2x) 225+/- mile trips each week. About half that time is Interstate and I need to cruise at 70-75mph (although I usually max-cruise at 82mph). The other half of that time is rural routes and they are posted from 45-65 (and I go 45 to 72) - seriously, some small towns give big tickets for 47 in a 45 but that is only three spots for me to worry about. Overall, I need the ability to merge into traffic as well as escape lane-encroaching situations (big trucks) so I need some kind of torque to get me moving. Florida can get very hot in the summer so I MUST have air-conditioning (and I know you CAN add that on to the aforementioned Type 1/3/4 but at a performance cost). I need an engine that will do this without fear of melting or dying after a handful of trips.

From what I understand so far, air-cooled may not be my best route. Even if I was to confine this car to just 'city-driving', Jacksonville, FL has so many roads where you need to go over 55 just to keep from getting run over and get-up-and-go is sometimes more important than top speed (at least where I usually drive). This being said, I find myself coming back to a Subaru EJ25 (or something similar). I am not wanting to build a racer but I need better overall performance than a basic Bug. You can see why I thought a Porsche 914 engine might cut it... I figured the Porsche engines had some promise. I still have not done a good comparison to the Corvair but I think I may have to same ultimate barriers that make me think of the Subaru Solution.

I may be unfairly biased to radiators after seeing how they were done on this car and I agree that I could do a better job (with my mentor, "BE"). What say you? Has anyone got any practical experience with the Subarus (or a better alternative)?

I really want to crack this nut because I think so may of my chassis decisions coming up will critically depend on my engine choice and the impacts may be major.
 
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rickjames8

Member
Warren - I'm also super intrigued by the new plans. I've always thought you would be the right person to bring the Sterling in to a new version!

As for rear view cameras, my idea was this. I was going to get one of those 'shark fin' antennas, and mount a 170 (or 180) degree camera on top of it. This will raise it off the roof a couple inches. Then mount that on the roof as far forward as possible (right up near the windshield if you can). I got the placement idea from this car:
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/712905816005262067/
but now see that Nissan is using the same placement on their race cars too: https://asean.nissannews.com/en/rel...ory-at-le-mans-with-first-mirrorless-race-car

As for 'being seen', I've always had this crazy idea to create a diy version of an active aero spoiler. Except that the function of my 'spoiler' wouldn't be to create any downforce, but rather to lift a light bar well above the height of the cabin. And in fact, it the wing part of the spoiler doesn't even need to be there. If you could figure out how to make two lighted shafts that came out of the corners and made the car more visible, that would serve the same purpose. I'd really only have them raised when driving in situations I felt I needed to be seen a bit more (highway, heavy traffic, etc).

Doug - wow, 2x 225 mile weekly trips in a Sterling sounds like a lot of travel for this type of car. Doable, but it might wear on you after a while from a comfort perspective. If that's the objective, I'd go with any smaller EFI engine (meaning newer-ish), simply because I think they'd have less vibration and less noise. If you really wanted to keep to to a V6, the one that came in the MX3 is incredibly light, but I'm not sure that engine made it to the USA. Another great V6 engine is the SHO, and that's Yamaha-built, and a good engine from what I've heard. My latest obsession is the engine in the latest BMW R1250GS. Most motorcycle engines can't make good low-RPM torque, but from about 2021 onwards, these ones are torque monsters making good torque early on. Some folks have been using these (earlier) BMW engines in 2CVs (which have an stock engine similar to an ACVW) for a number of years, with good success. I'll stop there as I know engine choice is a personal thing and usually something people have their hearts set on, but if you don't mind me rambling on, I've got so many crazy ideas.
 
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Brett Proctor

Well-known member
Just out of curiosity

Before you get started and spend a lot of time and money on this, have you considered getting a Corvette or something similar??
You can get a nice C4 Vette for around $10,000

They have HVAC system that works real well and cruse down the highway at above highway posted speeds easily. Got more than enough power and are very comfortable to drive in.
Not trying to talk you out of this but you might be happier going this route.

If your set on getting the Sterling road worthy for highway driving I'd be more than happy to help. My car has everything in it that your looking to do to your car. But the time and money your going to spend to do this will be up there.
It took me 14 years to get my car where it is today. Granted there was a lot of trial and error involved.
 
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Brett Proctor

Well-known member
Other pluses for getting a corvette or something similar thats better suited for what you want

Safer driving in the rain
More water tight. Less leaks.
Nice sound system
Quieter ride
Windows roll down for better fresh air into the cab
Better AC and Heater system than you'll be able to install in the Sterling
Smoother ride
You can find more locations that will work on the car.
No problem finding parts.
Other drivers see you better.
More mass around you if you get in an accident.
Easily to get insurance and getting registered.
 
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farfegnubbin

Site Owner
Staff member
All of the above points are totally true and are worthy of consideration. And the trade-off of course is that a C4 corvette will never draw a crowd or spontaneously bring a big smile to a random person’s face. A C4 Corvette barely gets noticed today.

The bigger point being that a C4 can easily be used as a daily driver.

Engines: Yes, the Subaru engines are EXCELLENT choices for our cars. They are plentiful, affordable, very reliable engines that, if you really want to get down to it, are like the modern water-cooled perfect evolution of the Bug engine. The swap has been done in several Sterlings and a whole lot of other Bugs and dune buggies so there is a pretty robust knowledge-base out there.

And it’s 100% true that it’ll take longer than any good estimate that you come up with. But it’s a cool finished product when it’s done.

I would like to see you get a nice Sterling back on the road and to enjoy the reaction it gets.
 
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farfegnubbin

Site Owner
Staff member
Horsepower for the weakest, wimpiest, non-turbo Subaru engines is around 140 hp. Many of the non-turbos are making 160+. The stock turbo are making 250-310 hp. (And good A/C is already there.)

Point being, you’d have to work hard and spend decent money to get a Bug engine UP to 120 hp whereas you’d actually have to try hard to have LESS than 140 hp with the Subaru.

But there are soooo many extra little things to be solved, and each of those things takes another weekend. Or month. Or season.

I don’t know if any of this is helping you but I really do want it to.
 
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farfegnubbin

Site Owner
Staff member
rickjames8 said:
Warren - I'm also super intrigued by the new plans. I've always thought you would be the right person to bring the Sterling in to a new version!

As for rear view cameras, my idea was this. I was going to get one of those 'shark fin' antennas, and mount a 170 (or 180) degree camera on top of it. This will raise it off the roof a couple inches. Then mount that on the roof as far forward as possible (right up near the windshield if you can). I got the placement idea from this car:
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/712905816005262067/
but now see that Nissan is using the same placement on their race cars too: https://asean.nissannews.com/en/rel...ory-at-le-mans-with-first-mirrorless-race-car
Click to expand...
Rick, you in particular, I think, are really gonna like the new car. It very heavily honors the original but has been tweaked to be mid-engine (plus other fun stuff.) I’m about 2000 hours into it and hopefully will soon get to a certain milestone with the body at which point I’ll start to share more. It’s gonna give you a smile.

Regarding cameras, yes, I love where they placed the mirror/camera in those examples. And I love the idea of hiding it in a “shark fin” too and have that as my fall-back if it doesn’t function correctly under the highest louver.

What I learned by duct-taping things to the roof of my Outback fifteen years ago is the following:

1) Try to mount a dedicated rear/side view camera so that part of your car can be seen. Even if it’s just a hint of the rear corner of the car it greatly helps to show the relationship of your car to nearby cars.

2) 120 degree field of view or greater is just too wide unless you have a huge, desktop size monitor in the car. What I found is that, if a car is more than about two car-lengths back you either can’t see it at all or can kind of tell something his there but have NO appreciation of relative speed. I could not use that set-up to merge. I tested it and it was dangerous.

3) In my opinion the best practical setup would be to have TWO (or even three) cameras, each with a tighter field of view, and feed them to two or more decent-size rear view monitors (like 4” by 10 or 12”.) The obvious problem there being having enough dash real estate. This is still pending in the new car. The dash does not yet exist but the cabin is 2” wider and the floor is about 4” deeper which should allow for some new configurations. We’ll see.

Regarding “being seen,” I like your idea. I’ve often half-jokingly mused of having some sort of aerodynamic pod about the size of a football on an extendable stalk that would come up about where the upper side-scoops are. I was gonna call it the “telemetry pod” or some such silliness and was going to put two or three rear-looking cameras and maybe one or two forward or side-view cameras as well as a strobe I could turn on. In heavy traffic the whole pod could be raised as a marker and as a higher set of eyes. This is NOT on the new car. But I still get a kick out of it.

My gut on the “see and be seen” issues is that, if I could pick one, I want to see. I want to know where people are and I’m okay with driving defensively.

Also, just to say it, I don’t think I’ve ever been unnoticed in traffic. I can imagine such scenarios but it is MUCH more common that someone who had been behind you comes up and hovers in your blind spot to check out the car. They very much know where I am. I just don’t know where the heck THEY are.

I hope I can solve this in the new car. It’s a high priority goal.

I might have to revisit the telemetry pod. 😄

(Sorry to have hijacked your thread, Doug. You’ve inspired conversations.)
 
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doug-doug the mighy

Member
Engines:
Brett - A Sterling was #2 on my car-bucket list. The C4 Corvette would be a soft #11. Since this is a never-get-rid-of car, I am okay putting more in than would normally suffice. If I ever get my #1, a 1971 De Tomaso Pantera (and I had a deal on one but it fell through at the last minute due to circumstances beyond the seller’s control), then that would be the daily driver and the Sterling would see very few long trips.

It sounds like the Subaru is probably going to be the best solution I can go for, all things considered. It does check so many boxes on my requirements. For the sake of moving my project along, I think I will commit to this solution which no presses my to choose which engine would be the best option. (Transmission will follow afterwards…).

Cameras:
I have been thinking about this one for a while as well. I saw this cool "Mirror Dash Cam" and it might be a good option although kind of amateur in its implementation. The side cameras are pretty cool and use USB to connect to the screen. It would be nice to put a pair forward looking so you can “peek” around a car before jumping out. But even with the kit as is, it is better than nothing and has some potential. Most important is that it could retrofit in to so many of our Sterlings with no too much extra work (no body work or major tear-downs needed other than maybe a power cord extender if no dome light is in your canopy already.

I love where all this is going and do thank you all as this enriches my understanding and plans immeasurably.
 
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sector

Active member
I also think subaru transmission conversion is the way to go. I did two conversions, one for NA and one for turbo trans. Very straightforward mod. My turbo trans has LSD. The big advantage of using subaru trans is no need for adapter plates that push the engine further back, leaving more room in the engine bay. And parts for subaru trans are dirt cheap. I purchased subaru turbo trans with LSD with 56K miles for $250. I had to take it out myself from a crashed car, but this way I knew exactly what I was getting. Plus now all connections just plug in. Highly recommend this approach.
 
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doug-doug the mighy

Member
Engines (Subaru):
I found some really old posts on this forum by ydeardorff and it has my little warped brain thinking. There is a good bit of info for me to process. I’m not going to gym things up (just yet) with talk about a mid-engine setup as that is a thing for when I rebuild my chassis.

For now, the questions will be H4 or H6? and turbo or no?

Based on what ydeardorff said (and sector, above), I am thinking I may need to pre-assemble my engine, transmission, and fuel cell before I mate them to the chassis. This will make clear what modifications I need to consider during my rebuild.
 
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Brett Proctor

Well-known member
Just to make sure we're talking apples to apples, That Subaru Gear kit (ring and pinion) lets you modify the Subaru transaxle so the engine and trany are in the same orientation as the VW setup. So you have 5 or 6 forward gears (depending on the transmission) and 1 reverse.
They even make the mounts for the engine and transmission so you don't have to fabricate any.
 
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doug-doug the mighy

Member
The Mean Lady:
[Some background... the Mean Lady is this woman who lives with me and claims to love me but often times stops me from doing (or frustrates to the point of interference) things I enjoy: smoking pipes/cigars, eating to excess, eating bacon (and to excess), spending money on more computer hardware than any three people could reasonably put to practical purpose, becoming a pirate (involves too much rum and coke before 10am on a Saturday, at which point I strip to my boxers and announce that I am invisible) - you know, normal wifey stuff.]

I told my wife about my plans to make the Sterling my daily driver, to include the two long weekly trips. The Mean Lady advised that I do not want to make the Sterling a daily driver and that I do not want to make long trips twice a week, dancing around much larger vehicles with naught but a fiberglass shell and the loving grace of God to protect me from my own stupid self (paraphrased).

As such, I will still put the Subaru in as planned and I will still paint it silver with black trim and I will still buy a steel Mandalorian helmet and I will still drive like a bat out of hell (as you do in Jacksonville, FL). I will still make a trip or two (mostly out of spite). After all, I am a Doug, and this is what we do... I have spoken.

But I will utilize my current means of travel as my primary mode, for the foreseeable future. I am so thankful I have her around because I did not know I wanted it this way until she told me so. I will not tell her about my thoughts on he really loud exhaust I was contemplating as I need time to better construct my "be heard if you cannot be seen" argument I was saving for later (think glass packs meet straight pipes meet motorcycle meet cigarette boat). But that is a topic for later...

General Project:
I have a few other responsibilities to tackle for the next three weeks so it will take that long before I can lay hands on my car again but once I do, it will be back to finishing up the electrical strip-down - the dash is all that is left and it is a rat's nest.
 
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