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Securing the canopy

lowboy

New member
Here's another question I haven't seen addressed anywhere; securing your canopy. I have those quick release clips that lock the top down. They came with the car so that's what I use. I've read that some guys W/ the powered tops just rely on the downward hydraulic force to keep the canopy tight. Is that really a satisfactory method? Doesn't your top shimmy around at speed?

True the clips are not elegant by any stretch, but they seem fairly secure. So if I was to ponder a powered lift device, what would I need to consider?
Also, people are talking about electric actuators these days. But I see no discussion on "downwards retention". What's the scoop here?
 

letterman7

Honorary Admin
Great question, Tom. On my hydraulic system, there was never any need for latching the canopy in place - the pressure from the hydro kept it well secure (admittedly, it did squeek a little bit over bumps). I think some of the more powerful linear actuators will do the same thing. Most of our cars still have the 'pin and hole' locating tabs on the canopy and body, so that should take out any lateral play on the canopy.
 

GreazMonky

New member
i have the stock electric actuators that came with my sebring. still working just fine, and it doesn't move when i'm on the highway. do need to invest in new weatherstripping, as there is a lil wind noise:p
 

ydeardorff

New member
Would a sequencer and say rear hatch latch with the remote release from a hatchback car work? Electrically it would only need be the first step in a sequence for the top opening and last for it closing.

First to release, and last to latch down once the lid touched a bullet connector in the door frame.
 

letterman7

Honorary Admin
Sure. You could even use one of those 'pull-down' latches from a Cadillac trunk, but if you've got the system set up right, you shouldn't need any additional hold-downs past your hinge mechanism.
 

farfegnubbin

Site Owner
Staff member
The hydraulics in both of my drivable Sterlings have been more than adequate for keeping the top tightly closed. My cars have a few mystery clunks over bumps, but nothing objectionable...and nothing that I think would be remedied by any mechanical latches. The problem is that, although the canopy is quite rigid, it is also quite large. Securing it only on the sides might camp it down bit, but it still might teeter-totter enough of a fraction of an inch to still have a little play/a little "loose" sound. A builder could create a three-point latch mechanism, but with any of the above, you're adding a whole lot of complexity to solve a problem that (thankfully) really isn't a significant problem (and you'd be greatly increasing the chance of a failure that gets you stuck INSIDE of the car...which, in practical terms, is more of a real concern than holding the top down.)

In my opinion, the only thing a builder needs to hold down the canopy is just a properly chosen hydraulic system (or carefully chosen linear actuators) that have a check valve to hold the load in the "up" position and also a check valve to hold it in the "down" position. Not all pumps have both of these options. It is a commonly overlooked nuance to designing a hydraulic system that works very well for our cars.

That said, I'm pretty sure that one of my cars does NOT have a check valve in the down position, and the top stays down pretty tightly for pretty long. If I'm ever on a longer trip and the top starts sounding loose, I just bump the switch for half a second and it tightens it again. Holding the top down really isn't a problem.

I think the biggest mistakes people make with the hydraulics are 1) sloppy or old wiring that isn't reliable and 2) sloppy, old, or inadequate plumbing that is always leaking. If someone sets up a top using a good pump, hearty hydraulic lines (bought from a custom shop like AeroQuip, etc), a clean-and-robust circuit to control it all, and carefully refined weatherstripping, they will want for nothing. The top will work reliably, will stay up or down when you want it to, and will be quiet and watertight with no further modification. Mechanical clasps wouldn't be 'wrong,' but they really aren't needed. Better to save all of those tricks and creativity for finding good ways to latch the hood. (I've heard of about a half-dozen Sterlings loosing their hoods while driving...sometimes breaking that very expensive windshield.)

Tom,
I had a Sterling that had hydraulics AND those old hold-down clasps, and, after a while, I stopped fastening the clasps. The canopy had the same little bit of play with or without them. I definitely never had the impression that things were sloppily shaking around. Just a little bit of a noise over rough roads, which I think I could have virtually eliminated with better weather-stripping. That car had weather-stripping that was dry rotted pretty much everywhere.
 

thestevie

Member
the car trasporter guy lost mine on the way to new jersey *very frustrated*
he said something green flew off the truck he thought it was my car.
but it ended up my my hood and he couldnt find it.
he also said even one asked about the car:cool:
 

ydeardorff

New member
what is the actuation stroke of the actuators in the top? I see lots of actuators out there but no idea which ones fit the application.

I also want to avoid alot of the crunching sounds Ive heard on you tube when the motors keep pulling, after the stroke is done. YE-IKES, that keeeerunch sound isnt flattering at all!
 

letterman7

Honorary Admin
8 or 9 inch stroke seems to be the maximum before the canopy over-centers. Some of the UK guys mounted the bottom of the rams right to the VW frame, cutting out the pocket that the rams usually sit in, so their overall ram is going to be larger by some 2-3 inches. I haven't heard any "crunching" noises while watching the 'tube videos, but then I wasn't listening for it, either. If you mount any actuator arm correctly, there shouldn't be any crunching at all!
 

ydeardorff

New member
Thank you for your reply.

Im currently waiting for some engineering replies on my designs for a latching mechanism for the top. Im also waiting for responses for better control of the top while its in motion. The dinner plate set down doesnt have that polished OEM look about it. I would like it to look deliberate, solid, and not wobbly while its opening or closing.
Ill keep you informed if I find anything usefull.
 

letterman7

Honorary Admin
Really, I've only seen one video where the canopy wobbled at all, and that particular car must have had some very quick actuators. My old car, Warrens, and the four others that were at the Carlisle show this year never showed any hint of wobble, even while closing the top under power, motoring out of a parking spot. Really, the only issue may be one side closes a little faster than the other, but that's all in the fine tuning.
 

GreazMonky

New member
i still have the old stock electric actuators on my sebring, and my top doesn't wobble when it goes up or down...unless i'm driving while raising:p but oklahoma roads suk as well :p
 

Nic

Active member
No wobble on mine either. Even after it's raised its relatively sturdy. Yeah I can move it back and forth but it's nothing that's crazy.

Weeble wobbles wobble, but they don't fall down. *laugh*
 

ydeardorff

New member
Im yakkin with linear actutor motor makers now to find quiet, quick and smooth operation units the will fit the bill.

The best they offered so far is 9mm a sec. Thats 0.354" a second, not sure what that translates into as far as the top raising. But doesnt sound very quick. Im also looking at adding a latching mechanism to the back of the roofs rear attaching point. This would secure the top, and prevent the top from sliding sideways in a broadside accident taking out the occupants of the car.
 
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ydeardorff

New member
Here is the latest response this evening.

Thank you for contacting Macron Dynamics with your actuator application. unfortunately we wont be able to help with this one. For this type actuator I would suggest Danaher motion. They have a product that used to be built under the name Electrack, when Warner Electric was building them. Danaher bought this product line a number of years ago. They are relatively inexpensive, and should be a good fit for your application.
Good luck with the project, very good looking car.
Joe

Check out this video.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NG0ZAv-apw8&feature=related[/ame]

this is the type of actuation Im talking about, although it would be nice if it was quieter.

This is the wobble Im talking about.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg7hnyc4fTU&feature=related[/ame]

I wonder if adding brass bushings to make a larger flatter pivoting bearing surface at the connecting points would stop this? See how it sets down like you placing a dinner pate on the counter?
Hmmm, gonna need to address this when I get mine.

 
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letterman7

Honorary Admin
I don't think you'll be able to entirely eliminate the "wobble" from the canopy. Just from the way the car is made, the rear of the canopy almost always contacts first, then the front gets pulled down. Careful application of the actuators - timing, positioning - would be needed to get a smoother pull, but what I saw was not objectionable in the least to me. Both those cars were/are running Linaks from the UK. I've talked to the Linak distributor here in the US and they were no help whatsoever. The actuator noise is going to be what it is - being from a military background, you should understand that anything mechanical is going to have a noise issue, especially captured motor and guidescrew systems. Personally, with my hydraulic system, the noise was part of the allure of the car. How often to you hear a whine of hydraulics in a passenger car?
 

ydeardorff

New member
yeah it would be cool if it had a nice gas decompression sound, then a sound like in sci fi movies when the door to the space ship opens. He he he.

Im not looking for super quiet, just not as loud as Ive heard from some of these cars on youtube.

Some sound almost like they have a chainsaw in the car. LOL
But yes I was thinking if the motors available were all still loud, I would wrap the motor with some sort of smal enclosure to muffle its noise. I mean convertible tops in cars arent noisey. This could be from sound proofing, and or pump location in the car.
 

Nic

Active member
Most of the noise you hear is being reverberated through the car. If you were to add a rubber footing where the actuator attaches to the car, you could cut down on that noise a little. I'm going to try to do this on my car.

Regarding the wobble. You almost have to lift the front first. I've tried to open the top manually by lifting from the rear and the front of the canopy binds/digs into the body and keep the top from opening.

The linacs are really nice and fast... and expensive. They were $800 for the pair when I checked about 6 months ago. The Firgelli's I bought were 250 for the pair. They are slower, yes, but work really well. Faster = Expensive-er :D.
 

GreazMonky

New member
i have seen on youtube a sebring that had air cylinders i believe to raise and lower the top. it was a short vid, but it went up crazy fast!*yipes*like 2 seconds
 
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