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production car windshields close to a cimbria ss?

Chunkstyle

New member
hi guys --

can anyone please tell me if there are any production car windshields that are roughly similar in size & shape to that used on a cimbria ss?

i know sterling glass will fit with that lip thing built into the body at the bottom, but was wondering if there may be anything else that would look decent out there with some modification.

a guy near me has a cimbria ss body fairly cheap, but it's missing all the glass, and any such project i'd undertake would be, by necessity, seriously low-budget -- precluding an $800+ sterling windshield.


thanks!

drew joseph
 

letterman7

Honorary Admin
Hi Drew,
No, there isn't. If there were, it would have been found already. All things in perspective, the windshield is fairly cheap. It's a custom piece that's been around for decades - not too many manufacturers can claim that!
 

Brett Proctor

Well-known member
For as many people that want glass for these cars, has anyone tried to trace down the company who made the glass when these cars were being built or where the molds went?? The cars were built in the US right?? or were they built some where else.

I'm sure someone has probably all ready tried this but it seems like it might be worth a company to make a run of these. If a pre order was made and there was enough committed orders to warrent the production run.

Brett
 

letterman7

Honorary Admin
Molds are hugely expensive for glass this size. To my knowledge, the glass has (and currently does) come from the UK from the original mold. I've been trying to get Dave to keep it stateside, but he maintains that it's still cheaper to have the glass imported.
 

Brett Proctor

Well-known member
OK let me see if I got this right. The cimbria was designed and built here in the USA but the glass came from the UK. Is that right.

Brett
 

ydeardorff

New member
The bradley GT2 guys have the problem of the windsheild glass mold being here in the states, but there is only one mold. The owner of that mold will only sell more windsheilds if there is a minimum order of 20 pieces (at 200 bucks each).

I do hope the glass issue for the sterling doesn't EVER head down the path that the GT2 has. It would quickly become unprocurable.
 

Brett Proctor

Well-known member
Being able to get the glass for the car was a deciding factor for me when I was looking for this project. Origonally I was looking for a Manta Montage, and I found one, but you couldn't get the glass for it any more. I didn't want to take a chance of buiding a car and then not being able to drive it because of a broken windshield so I got the sterling.

I wonder what happen to the companies that made the glass for these kits and what happen to the molds. Are the molds tucked away some where and just need to be found or were they destroyed.
All so if its so expensive to produce the glass now what was it like back then to make them. If you were a kit car company just starting up and you needed someone to build a windshield for the car your going to sell, how much did it cost back then to tool up and produce them(or even finding a company to make them)
If they had the same problems as today I'm sure alot of kits would have never been made.
It's to bad that the cost of labor and materials has sky rocketed to the point where its not worth it to anyone to make unless you have an order for 20 or more at a cost that the average person cann't afford. $200 - $800 or more each. A lot of kit cars from an era that the average joe could afford and build in his garage will never be restored because of this. They'll just rot away and be forgotten. *whaah*

Brett
 

letterman7

Honorary Admin
OK let me see if I got this right. The cimbria was designed and built here in the USA but the glass came from the UK. Is that right.

Brett


Well, in essence, yes. The screens are identical except for the overall size. With careful trimming Sterling glass can be made to fit the Cimbria with no other modifications.

But you're right - the average cost of producing a mold is so expensive (something like $12-15K if memory serves) that it just doesn't make sense to have one made for just a few vehicles. The Manta molds are still around; some company in CA has them for their own line of custom cars but won't produce less than 20 at a shot. Some of those Manta owners have been getting acrylic windshields from an aircraft manufacturer in CA as well... which does nothing for those in states that require a DOT approved glass screen.

For the moment at least the Sterling molds are safe, as in still being used fairly regularly to service cars in all parts of the world. As long as Dave continues to make parts, they should still be available!
 

kruzer52

Member
Why is it that most of the Cimbrias that are for sale all need windshields? Is it a design flaw with the body? Does the body have to much flex, which would put stress on the windshield?
 

letterman7

Honorary Admin
Maybe, or it just might be the luck of the draw. I've seen a number in Cimbria (cimbrias?) in person and all had intact windscreens. I never really noticed any lack of central support that would allow the glass to crack, but I've never owned one, either. I do own a gull wing kit that is very much like a Cimbria, and I have no issues with the way the roof is supported, so I have no fear the glass is going to crack.
 

farfegnubbin

Site Owner
Staff member
ScarGlass,

Thank you for taking the time to register to the site and for making us aware of your source for glass. You might be part of the solution for the Cimbria windshield.

What I know is that the Puma GTV is a direct decentand of the Nova. It has the lifting canopy, and for any photo I've ever seen, the frame around the window appears to be exactly identical to the early Nova and Sterling.

In the US we have done measurements which confirm that the windshields are from the same molds, but the windshield for the Cimbria needs to be trimmed shorter by about 6mm along the entire perimeter in order to fit. Do you know whether it is possible for your company to trim a Puma windshield in that way?

Again, thanks for your posting and for the dimensions. I will measure my Cimbria windshield later this week.
 

farfegnubbin

Site Owner
Staff member
Hi guys,

I've wanted to weigh in on several aspects of this topic for a while now.

First, a Cimbria SS owner ("Fuzz") and I live near to one another and we've been working feverishly to figure out whether the Sterling windshield can be made to fit in a Cimbria. The short answer is that, yes, we believe it can be made to fit, but it needs to be trimmed in a specific way. We are currently looking for a company that can provide the trimming because it is NOT something that should be done at home on a $800 windshield.

I need to take a few more photos before I can post more specifics. I'll try to get that done and posted this week.

The second issue is the very interesting question of whether there is something inherently defective about the Cimbria design that is causing the windshields to break.

Excellent question, and it does make a person think.

I have a first gen Cimbria and a Cimbria SS at this point (both with intact windshields), and my impression is that the fiberglass work is very heavy and rigid around the windshield. I think that if the windshields were breaking because of flex in the body/roof then there would be some telltale signs of stress cracks in the base of the A-pillars and/or where the small roof section is (between the gull wings). But I don't see any suspicious stress cracks in the fiberglass at either location. This doesn't mean that we've totally ruled out body flex as a culprit. But my gut feeling is that this is NOT a problem.

Then why are there so many Cimbrias with cracked windshields for sale? I think the answer is much more mundane: There hasn't been a source for Cimbria windshields for 30 years and therefore the cars with broken ones keep piling up. And seeing as how most states won't let a car pass inspection with a cracked windscreen, every time this happens to a Cimbria it takes the car off the road, which relegates it to a "project", which is yet another reason they show up for sale with broken windshields at a suspiciously high rate.

But yeah, I don't think it boils down to any more than that. If every year there is ONE Sterling that gets a random crack in the windshield, the owner can just buy a new one. (I have certainly seen a bunch of Sterlings for sale over the years that also had cracked windshields). But if every year there has been just ONE Cimbria that had a cracked windshield for whatever random causes, then that means there are at least 30 or 40 Cimbrias around with windshields that couldn't be replaced. And guys couldn't get them on the road because of it, and thus they eventually show up for sale. I don't think the problem is anything more insidious than that.

And we are trying to solve the supply problem. :D We have a few good leads, including but not limited to the one above. It's just a matter of finding a company that can trim an existing Sterling windshield in the manner we need. (More to come...)
 

kruzer52

Member
It's good to know that new windshield glass might be available in the future. I've seen some good deals on Cimbria's with broken glass, which is always a deal breaker for me. I would rather have a Sterling, but would settle for a Cimbria.
 

ScarGlass

New member
hy all


if it has to be cut, no problem there
windscreens can be cut or grind.
tempered glass did not.
We have special disks with which you can make changes to the windshield.
and 6 mm are not problems, is very slowly grinding wheel with a disc up when he has the right size if you think it is not equal


grazie, ScarGlass

Parabrezza per Auto d'Epoca - Scarazzai Luigi
 

BossHog

New member
Hi Kruzer52, in my opinion you are correct when you ask if the windshield cracking problem is a design flaw. The roof is too flimsy for the heavy weight doors that people think is cool to leave in the upright position for long periods of time. Eventually, the roof structure starts to sag and the windshields crack. When i push up on the center of my SS's cracked glass, the roof moves up 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch which makes my doors line up with the roof properly. I just got my new glass, nearly a thousand bucks with shipping. It's not going into the car until i design and fabricate a kind of built in roll bar structure that goes down the roof centerline out and down the rear of the door openings to the floor pan and around the inside of the windshield opening down the pillars down the front of the door jams to the pan. That should get the roof up to stock height and strengthen the whole mess. Then i'll feel better about installing that expensive piece of glass. Don't want to have it crack because of an inherant problem in the cars design.
Next time you sit in your car, push up on the glass in the center near the top in line with the center piece of the roof and see just how much the roof flexes.
 

farfegnubbin

Site Owner
Staff member
BossHog,

First things first: What is your plan for grinding down the windshield? Windshields that are specifically cut for a Cimbria don't exist, which means that you bought a shiny new beautiful Sterling windshield...which won't fit without slight but unavoidable modification. A bunch of us are trying to figure out how to grind down the windshield. We will be eager to hear what your going to try to do and hear updates on your progress. What's your current plan for cutting down the windshield?

I definitely like your idea to strengthen the A pillars and roof section. I can't think of any drawback from having that extra rigidity (except for the pain in the butt of having to cut into those sections and fabricating and embedding the steel.)

It is interesting to speculate whether the Cimbria SS might be more prone to cracking of the windshield as compared to the first gen Cimbria. In the first gen Cimbria, the doors are quite a bit lighter and the roof section (between the hinges of the gull wings) is wider. I can tell you that my first gen car doesn't seem to have any significant flex in that area. My one Cimbria SS body -- which DOESN'T have a windshield in it -- has a considerable amount of flex just like you are describing. Interestingly, my other Cimbria SS, with an intact windshield, doesn't have any flex. ...but of course that means that there are thus stresses being "successfully" absorbed through the windshield.

I grew up around my dad who has built/restored about 45 to 50 sport aircraft. In each one, it has never ceased to amaze me how flimsy some of the pieces seem until ALL of them are brought together as a unit. Every little piece makes its unit stronger. There are virtually no pieces that aren't shouldering some of the stresses. It isn't 100% bad thinking to expect that the windshield might be expected to contribute somewhat to the rigidity of that system...up to a point, of course. And obviously, we're all trying to figure out whether that point has been passed in the SS.

There might be a design flaw that is leading to cracked windows. There really might be. But it is also true that it is not completely wrong to expect the window to contribute to some of the overall integrity of the unit. I believe there are a lot of convertibles out there whose window frames would seem a little scary (in terms of flexibility) with the windshield removed. (But of course, that's not a perfect example because, in a convertible, we aren't expecting windshield frame to support heavy gullwing doors.) My point is that, like you, some of us are a bit concerned about the lack of stark rigidity in the window frame of the SS. But it is unclear how much of that is a cause versus how much of that is a symptom of the windshield being cracked. I wish we knew for sure.

There is one nuance to mention: Letterman7 once pointed out how heavy the doors are on Fuzz's Cimbria SS, yet the doors on my SS are not heavy at all. Apparently some have an internal metal framework and some do not. I don't know if the metal internal frame was a quiet factory modification in later models or if Fuzz just happens to have a unique car in which the builder made that specific request. Anyway, my point is that different Cimbria SS cars might have different issues regarding the interplay of the doors, windshield, and roof/windshield frame.

I also wonder if it makes a difference if the previous owners ever drove with the doors up, like when parking or slow-speed show-boating for a crowd. THAT would put a heck of a potential load on the windshield and fiberglass frame. THAT is a very bad idea.

When the doors are down and closed, however, the bulk of the mass of the door is quite low on the door. With the door closed and latched properly, the roof can't flex downward because the door is rigid enough to transfer forces mainly down into the sills on the side. With the doors down and latched, there should be virtually nothing you could do with regard to driving conditions that would ever make the front top corners of the door tip downward. And I don't think there is a problem with the static load when parked with doors up. I wonder if some owners were their own worst enemy and were too liberal in moving the car with the doors up. Perhaps it isn't an inherent design flaw beyond not having enough buffer against carelessness.

That said, are any of us totally convinced that the entire body of the Cimbria SS is torsionally rigid enough? I mean, the Sterling has essentially a huge, strong D-section of body that runs up both sides of the cockpit. It's rock solid. The first gen Cimbria has a higher side sill than the SS, so it at least has SOME of the rigidity of the Sterling. But then there's the SS, which has a very low side sill at the door. With a low side sill, very narrow roof section, and essentially a stock Bug chassis, there's just not a lot of extra torsional rigidity.

I, for one, would like to see a beefed up perimeter chassis on any VW chassis on an SS. If you're tearing down your car enough to justify doing so, you might consider reinforcing the actual chassis on the sides as well as the A-pillars and roof.

Anyway, in summary, I think that the roof and window frame of a Cimbria is considerably weaker than a Sterling due to structural differences between the gull wings versus the canopy. And I think the roof/window frame of a Cimbria SS is weaker than a first gen Cimbria due to reasons stated above. And yet I'm also still going to stubbornly hold to my theory that a lot of the broken windshields on Cimbrias that come up for sale is simply because they were damaged from random, stupid reasons and there has been no source for replacements for 25-30 years. I've seen Sterlings and Sebrings for sale with broken windshields, too (and their canopies are extremely rigid.) The difference is, you can still get a replacement windshield for a Sterling and Sebring.

But I'll end by repeating one of the my first points: I think it is a fine idea to try to strengthen those elements of the SS. Please keep up apprised of your strategies and progress for doing so. If executed well, it will definitely benefit your car, and there will be owners over time who will probably want to try the same. *thumbs up*
 

kruzer52

Member
I would almost bet, that these cracks happen when someone is slamming the door shut. Look at the leading edge of the gull wing where it comes in contact with the upper edge of the windshield frame. That seems to me , to be the stress point. If you look at some of the pics of Cimbria with cracked windshields, the cracks seem to start at that upper corner of the windshield.
 
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