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Pog's Sterling (CCC293)

vpogv

Member
Shows how much I know Letterman!

Thanks Brett, you found that quick. I think the best route is to just go new calipers, pads, rotors and bearings. That way I know it's all good up front and shouldn't have to tear into things again for a while.
 

vpogv

Member
Well after a long week and lost Saturday I got 2 hours today and well...

Link just in case.

Needs a steering box, new tires and an alignment BADLY. The suspension wasn't terrible but the front tires rub at full left or right - but that's it.
The brakes work but a bit spongy still the biggest issue are the new calipers - 3 out of 4 bleeder valves are seeping at the threads. Going to remove them, check the threads and let the fluid try and wash any contaminants out. Hopefully it's something simple.
 
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letterman7

Honorary Admin
(y) Progress is still progress! VW alignments are actually pretty easy - you can do it in your own garage with simple tools. Lots of Samba threads and Youtube vids on how to do it. Front ends are easy... rear is a little more difficult, but they rarely go out of alignment (unless you change ride height drastically). As for the bleeders... brake fluid doesn't "dry". Take the bleeders out and wrap a little teflon tape on them, but don't cover the actual bleeder hole on the end.
 

vpogv

Member
(y) Progress is still progress! VW alignments are actually pretty easy - you can do it in your own garage with simple tools. Lots of Samba threads and Youtube vids on how to do it. Front ends are easy... rear is a little more difficult, but they rarely go out of alignment (unless you change ride height drastically). As for the bleeders... brake fluid doesn't "dry". Take the bleeders out and wrap a little teflon tape on them, but don't cover the actual bleeder hole on the end.

I may double check the alignment I did years ago - still have the spare rims for it. The more I thought about it last night the more I was thinking it may be the steering box causing the pull. One thing at a time though.

Regarding the bleeder valves - I was really trying not to use tape on the threads as the valves should close and not cause leak still but maybe I'm trying to hard for it to be perfect vs. fixed.
 

letterman7

Honorary Admin
Yeah, I get it. Technically everything should work right out of the box, but anymore the cheap EMPI parts and most other VW replacement parts are suspect at best. You just gotta do what ya gotta do to make it work.
 

vpogv

Member
Well these 3000+psi hoses are definitely overkill but I worth the expense to not have to worry about the fittings anymore! Next up is to reassemble the interior and get some tires. Then plates!

IMG_20210822_171258998.jpg
IMG_20210822_171317396.jpg
 

farfegnubbin

Site Owner
Staff member
Those are insane! They should come in handy for the Sterling front end loader and snow blade attachments under development. :)

I'm only teasing because I'm jealous. Those look great!
 

vpogv

Member
Ended up tidying up a bit of wiring and a few components that I just forgot about, such as wireless entry/closing. Got the interior back in and put the canopy on and immediately hit a small problem. The driver's side has a bounce to it when the canopy is closing. You can audibly hear it in the video. While the noise is coming from the pump it's definitely that side that is the issue.

Link just in case.

The pump is a self bleed one and I didn't have any bounce prior to the first time I lose a hydraulic hose. I am tempted to take both cylinders to get rebuilt but curious what you all think.
 

farfegnubbin

Site Owner
Staff member
That’s an odd symptom and I’m not too sure what is going on. Here are some thoughts based on problems I’ve had with the top.

One of my cars gets air in its line when I let it sit for a while. When I run the top, I can hear little pockets of air going through the pump which present as random, quick, intermittent pauses and a sound that literally sounds like the pump is cavitating for brief moments. It’s not a periodic sound like yours so I’m tempted to think yours isn’t due to air (which I know you were also tending to rule out.)

It kind of sounds like something is binding and releasing. I wonder if there is some amount of binding in the cylinder itself or in the parallel-hinge on that side. I don’t want to send you on a wild goose chase though.

Have you cycled it a bunch of times? There’s a chance it’ll free up.

Also, is that the tone that your pump has always had? Is your battery good? I’m asking because your pump has a lower tone than any of mine. But I still can’t think of how that would contribute to that lurching.

Most puzzling is that you said it didn’t do that before you replaced a hose. Was the cylinder empty and dry for a long time? (Even if it was, it should naturally have had a film of fluid that would prevent any corrosion or change to the O-rings, etc.)

Sorry I don’t have a definitive diagnosis.
Maybe hit the parallel hinge with some oil and cycle it a bunch more times with a confirmed strong battery to rule out the low hanging fruit.
 

vpogv

Member
That’s an odd symptom and I’m not too sure what is going on. Here are some thoughts based on problems I’ve had with the top.

One of my cars gets air in its line when I let it sit for a while. When I run the top, I can hear little pockets of air going through the pump which present as random, quick, intermittent pauses and a sound that literally sounds like the pump is cavitating for brief moments. It’s not a periodic sound like yours so I’m tempted to think yours isn’t due to air (which I know you were also tending to rule out.)
That sound of the auto bleeding definitely isn't this so I am in agreement.


It kind of sounds like something is binding and releasing. I wonder if there is some amount of binding in the cylinder itself or in the parallel-hinge on that side. I don’t want to send you on a wild goose chase though.

Have you cycled it a bunch of times? There’s a chance it’ll free up.

Also, is that the tone that your pump has always had? Is your battery good? I’m asking because your pump has a lower tone than any of mine. But I still can’t think of how that would contribute to that lurching.
Now the cylinder binding is a good thought but I would imagine it would have to be off by a good amount to really bind up like that. With the top off everything runs smoothly but I am going to check the angles of the cylinder to ensure it's running parallel.

Pump is the same, battery is good. There is a possibility the pump could have issues but the tone has always been that way so I am putting that one at the bottom of the list.


Most puzzling is that you said it didn’t do that before you replaced a hose. Was the cylinder empty and dry for a long time? (Even if it was, it should naturally have had a film of fluid that would prevent any corrosion or change to the O-rings, etc.)

Sorry I don’t have a definitive diagnosis.
Maybe hit the parallel hinge with some oil and cycle it a bunch more times with a confirmed strong battery to rule out the low hanging fruit.
I appreciate any feedback so thank you. As far as the cylinders they weren't full but they never dried out enough to kill the seals.
 

vpogv

Member
Some more information after playing around with it:

1. Taking some of the canopy weight off (ie: lifting the canopy with my hands as it goes down) on the passenger (right) side does reduce the bounce but doesn't get rid of it.

2. When I start to open the canopy when it's fully closed the driver's side (left) starts up almost a full second sooner then the right side starts to lift.

3. When the canopy was completely off there was no bounce.
 

letterman7

Honorary Admin
Interesting. And probably more common than you think depending on the style pump. #114 had limiters in the hydraulic lines sort of like these: https://www.amazon.com/Hydraulic-Li...t=&hvlocphy=9007347&hvtargid=pla-827725770903. It took me a great while to figure out what they were as they were on both the up and down sides of the piping - on both cylinders. What they do is actually smooth out the flow and limit the flow to an extent - the noise is more than likely the fluid being "sprayed" or pushed out of the cylinder faster than the pump can handle it (from the canopy weight). That would explain the bounce. Same thing with the "up" - one side is moving quicker, so you need to limit the fluid on that side to "even out" the flow and have the canopy raise at the same rate on both sides.
 

Nic

Member
Could one of those limiters also help with the canopy going down? When i drop mine there's a bounce-bounce-bounce all the way down. If I apply opposite pressure to the canopy, it stops the bouncing.
 

letterman7

Honorary Admin
Could one of those limiters also help with the canopy going down? When i drop mine there's a bounce-bounce-bounce all the way down. If I apply opposite pressure to the canopy, it stops the bouncing.
Absolutely. Put them on both outbound lines. Might take a few tries to get the pressure right, but it will help.
 

vpogv

Member
Canopy off, both cylinders flipped, cycled a few dozen times, cracked open, topped off and the problem is still there.
cursing.gif


So thinking through it all - things worked great upon initial install. Bounce started only after the first blowout. I am still open to the flow restrictor but as it is only on the down but what if something else happened? So I tore the fittings around the pump apart. I was careful but some how the little bearing came out and I believe this is how it was set up.

TO RAM | INTO PUMP | CROSS OVER TO OTHER SIDE
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IMG_20210912_163928208.jpg


Here shows how it's positioned:
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DSC02299.JPG
 

letterman7

Honorary Admin
That's appears to be a relief valve - where did it come from? I *think* it worked for you initially because the old tubing was actually taking the brunt of the pulse by literally expanding in diameter - which would explain the blowout. With the new lines, it's much more restrictive than before. Your pump setup looks fine (as long as you can reach the dump valve if you need it!), you just have to figure out where that relief valve came from.
 

vpogv

Member
Thanks letterman, that makes sense. I did go ahead and rebuild the valve and put it all back together and tested. I will pick up a flow restrictor this week and install to hopefully fix the underlying issue.
 

farfegnubbin

Site Owner
Staff member
Just for clarification, when you say you “flipped” both cylinders as an experiment, do you mean that you kept them on the same side and turned them upside down or did you flip them from one side of the car to the other and still had problems on the same side of the car? I’m just curious whether the problem followed one of the cylinders or if it’s unique to one side of the canopy.

PS My red car came with a flow controller similar to what Letterman is describing. But I think there is only one on my car. I’ll try to double check how it’s plumbed and whether it was to control one side or common to both, etc. I always figured it was common to both and was just there to fine-tune the overall speed, but through this discussion I am now rethinking that. Maybe they really did need it to sync the cylinders better.
 

vpogv

Member
Just for clarification, when you say you “flipped” both cylinders as an experiment, do you mean that you kept them on the same side and turned them upside down or did you flip them from one side of the car to the other and still had problems on the same side of the car? I’m just curious whether the problem followed one of the cylinders or if it’s unique to one side of the canopy.

I meant turned them upside down/ bled both cylinders. I did not swap them around as the more I played with it the bounce didn't seem like it was coming from the cylinder. I could use the manual valve to close the top and there would be no bounce. I could lift either side of the canopy as it closed and it would reduce the bounce but not completely get rid of it.

This is why I tore into the pump. When the bounce would start it really felt like it was the relief valve fluttering. Perhaps the flow control valve will help assist that or it's just a warn valve.

PS My red car came with a flow controller similar to what Letterman is describing. But I think there is only one on my car. I’ll try to double check how it’s plumbed and whether it was to control one side or common to both, etc. I always figured it was common to both and was just there to fine-tune the overall speed, but through this discussion I am now rethinking that. Maybe they really did need it to sync the cylinders better.

Thanks for checking - that would be a help as I am not sure which side needs the restriction.
 

vpogv

Member
I won't lie, I had my doubt that the issue would be fixed with a flow control valve as it worked just fine before but low and behold that was the fix.

Click for video

Creaking isn't the bounce and is actually gone now. For those curious about the valve it is recommended to have one per cylinder but I started with 1 and will see how things go.
 
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