Comparison of Sterling vs Cimbria windshields

[farfegnubbin]

I've recently done some experiments that I believe will give us the answer to two long-standing questions: Can a Sterling windshield be used on a Cimbria, and if so, what modifications are needed?

For years there has been a debate about the differences between the windshield of the Sterling versus the Cimbria and Cimbria SS. Some people are convinced that the windshield is identical to the Sterling. Some say it was totally different, designed from scratch from a different mold. My hunch was always that the Cimbria and Sterling windshields probably came from the same molds but their borders might have been trimmed to significantly different outlines. From photos and indirect measurements, it has always been difficult to definitively answer the question.

The impetus for the debate is that Cimbria owners are in desperate need of a source of replacement windshields for our cars. Over the years, some Cimbria windshields have become cracked. But windshields specifically made and trimmed for the Cimbria haven't been available for about 25 years or so. Consequently, there are quite a few Cimbrias out there that have broken or missing windscreens and therefore are not able to be finished, inspected, and driven.

Well, I promised myself that, if I ever had the chance to lay one windshield over the other, I'd take lots of photos and share the results. Recently, that opportunity presented itself.

One of our members, "Fuzz," has one of the nicest examples of a Cimbria SS around. He has driven it for years, but over past two years he has done a partial tear-down and restoration in an attempt to modernize the engine, dash, and interior in general.

Amazingly, he very bravely decided to remove the windshield in order to achieve said goals. God bless him; I still don't know how he did it without one crack or chip to the windscreen. He has bigger stones than I do. *laugh*

Anyway, Fuzz only lives about a half-hour away from me. So one day recently, I drove my red Sterling over to Casa Fuzz and we very, very carefully laid his Cimbria SS windshield directly onto my Sterling.

Below are photos of the results. In short, I can tell anyone out there with 100% certainty that the Cimbria windshield and the Sterling windshield have exactly identical curvatures and definitely came from the same molds (or sister molds).

BUT...

The borders of the Cimbria and Sterling windshields are trimmed a little differently and you CANNOT directly fit a Sterling windshield into a Cimbria without either modifying the windshield or the fiberglass frame for the windshield in the Cimbria. (And I have an opinion on which solution is better -- more to come.)

But going back for a moment, we now have 100% confirmation that the basic shape and convexity of the two windshields are identical. When we set the Cimbria windscreen onto my Sterling, it was a perfect, kiss fit. There were no open margins or air pockets. The two windshields nestle totally against each other; you couldn't even get a piece of paper between the two.

Here are a few photos of the general compatibility. The Cimbria windshield is the one with all of the masking tape. The Sterling windshield is under it, installed on the car. I know it looks like there is only one windshield. (That's kind of the point.)

​

So we know that the contours match. Let that never again be a discussion point. The verdict is in. Those two windshields came from the same mold (or copy).

Okay, but now let's talk differences.

The Cimbria windshield is trimmed about 1/4 to 3/8 inch smaller around its entire border. Below are some close-ups showing the difference in the borders. It didn't surprise me that the Cimbria's windshield was trimmed a little smaller (we'll get to the reason momentarily). But what DID surprise me is that the shape of the outline of the windshield is 100% the same as the Sterling. I don't know why, but I always had myself convinced that the front edge of the Cimbria was cut a little bit straighter across. Not so!

Which brings us to the second verdict: The outline of the Cimbria and Cimbria SS windshield is 100% the same as the Sterling, but the Cimbria's windshield is trimmed back a universal distance of about 1/4 inch around the entire perimeter. (It seems to be trimmed a little more -- like 1/16 inch -- on the sides and a little less on the top and bottom.)

Let's have a look:

​

*****
​

As a quick aside, the main reason that the Cimbria windshield is a little smaller than the Sterling's is because it had to be. Switching to a gull-wing door design forced the designers to make the A-pillar a little wider (due to the fact that it was now split down the middle with one half belonging to the window frame and the other half belonging to the door.) Consequently, they trimmed back the front windshield and also the side windows a bit. You can see the difference in the A-pillar thickness here:

​

The other reason that the Cimbria windshield is trimmed back a little more is because the designers apparently opted to use a rubber border around the window of the Cimbria whereas a Sterling's windshield is glued directly to the frame with just glue filling in the border between the glass an the frame. The Cimbria's windshield thus had to be trimmed a little further presumably to provide space for the thickness of this border. It's difficult to see these details, but look closely at the following photos of the white Cimbria (has a gasket) and the red Sterling (no gasket):

*****

So, with the above in mind, I think we can put the bulk of the issue to rest knowing that we have confirmed that the windshields of both cars have identical curvature but the outline of the windshield of the Cimbria is trimmed a little bit smaller.


(and the crowd murmurs)



What's that you say? Did anyone every try fitting a Sterling windshield to a Cimbria just to see if it works?

Sheesh, you guys are real ball-busters!! *laugh*

Okay, so here we go with part two of the experiment:

I have a Sterling windshield that isn't mounted, and I happen to have a naked Cimbria SS body sitting out back. (I have a lot of odd things lying around). So this week I finally got both entities onto the same property and experimented with fitting the Sterling windshield onto the Cimbria frame (ie, the opposite of the above).

Well, the first batch of photos below confirm that the overall contour and outline are a great match.

​

But next is a closer shot that begins to show the problem: Namely, the Sterling windshield is just a little too big, so it doesn't sit down into the frame. You can get one side to fit or the other side to fit. But don't think you're gonna get both sides to fit at the same time. Not gonna happen.

Here are some close-ups in which I lined up the driver side (showing that the shape of the outline is correct):

And here are a few close-up of the passenger side showing how far the Sterling windshield is displaced due to being a little too big: (Note: For anyone keeping close score, the discrepancy shown is actually a little exaggerated because I had the driver side flush and the passenger side fully out. I couldn't get the windshield to balance for a photo any other way. But you would mentally have to split this difference side-to-side).

​

​

(And lest anyone make the following comment, please don't say that the curvature of the window looks different than the frame (and therefore different than the Cimbria windshield). It's not. See all of the above discussion with placing the Cimbria windshield over the Sterling. Their curvatures are identical. The Sterling's windshield looks funky on the Cimbria merely because it's a little too big to seat down into the frame.)

*****
​

So there we have it (in terms of defining the problem): The Sterling windshield is a possible starting point as a replacement for the Cimbria, but it's a little too big.

Don't anyone believe a seller who tells you they have a "new windshield in a box" that will fit. They don't. They have a Sterling windshield, and it WON'T FIT without either cutting the windshield or attempting to modify the body/window frame.

Okay, so what are we to do?

Firstly, I don't think that modifying the body is a viable option. You CANNOT cut that much fiberglass out of the A-pillar without seriously compromising its integrity. Don't think you're gonna just "add reinforcement" to a cut back pillar; there just isn't enough volume there to do it correctly.

So another option would be to do what one of the builders, Keith, described doing as documented on Rick's NationalSterling site. He, too, knew first hand that the Sterling windshield didn't quite fit but he pointed out that you COULD allow it to sit up from the window frame and then try to blend a ridge or flange of fiberglass up to meet the border of the glass.

Mocking this up on my grey body (as seen in the photos), I think that this is a very noble last-ditch option but that it would be extremely hard to do to make it look right. Either you'd have to make the windshield flush at the top edge and then build up a lip not only at the bottom but also all along the A-pillars (which would look really wonky), or else you could slide the windshield down until the sides of the windshield begin to drop into the frame (because you're sliding a trapezoidal windshield down a trapezoidal frame) which would give the advantage of a better fit at the pillars but would add the dual problems of 1) now having a much bigger lip to fabricate along the front edge and 2) having a gap between the top of the windshield and the roof. And yes, you could then 'glass that in, but it would look like the entire windshield melted and ran down the car an inch or two lower than it should be.

Am I saying it's impossible to modify the fiberglass frame (additively) as a solution? No. But it is not for the faint of heart and it WILL change the look of the car, not necessarily in a positive way.

So what are we left with?

We need to find a way to trim the windshield. And in fact, that's exactly what Dave (from SterlingSportsCars), Fuzz, and I are trying to do. A windshield CAN be ground down with even a simple diamond disc. But to do so evenly and without chipping or cracking the windshield is virtually impossible. We do not recomend trying this. If you're going to attempt it yourself, count on setting aside money for about 3 or 4 Sterling windsheilds (at $700-900 a pop) for all of the ones that you're very likely to break. What we need (and are looking for) is a company that can professionally trim the windshield about 1/4 inch smaller.

Anyway, I hope that this lays to rest some of the mysteries of the Cimbria windshield. I, for one, think that it is wonderful news to be able to verify that the Cimbria did not have its own, totally unique windshield and that a Sterling windshield represents the perfect raw material for a replacement.

Beyond that, we're still looking for a company that can help with the re-trimming.

The main problem, of course, is with money; very few companies want to help with a project that has a production run of only a few units.

What can you do to help? If you are a Cimbria owner who needs a windshield or wants a spare, let us know (either here or through Dave). We do not have a solution yet, but we are tentatively trying to gauge interest so we know whether we need to talk a company into doing five, ten, fifteen or whatever units. I want a spare. Fuzz wants one. And I know of at least four Cimbrias that were recently sold that have no windshields, so it's not hard to imagine that five or ten windshields could find a new home.

Anyway, this is what I did for fun this weekend.

As a sad footnote, I broke my Sterling windshield in the process (the one that was slated for the blue car, not the one in the nice red car). That windshield came with the car when I purchased it in 1990. I've moved it from Illinois to central PA, then from central PA to Pittsburgh for 8 years, then from Pittsburgh to north central PA for seven years, then from north central PA back down south and hour or two, all without breaking it. But Friday I broke it. *whaah*

Oh well. I really wanted a nice fresh one anyway (seriously). Dave's new ones are cleaner, clearer, and have more professional looking borders and matting.

Still...I think I might have softly said a bad word or two when I heard the sound:

"...click..."









"FU---DGE!!!!!!"












​

​

​

 

[Brett Proctor]

Very good write up Warren. Bummer about your windshield.

I got a stupid question
If both share the same cuvature and the only differenance is the size, why cann't you have the company that makes the sterling windshield make the Cimbria?? Couldn't you use the same mold and cut the glass to the Cimbria coordinates before its formed(still a flat pane) then put it in the sterling mold and pop it in the oven to form it. I don't see why that cann't be done. It seems like that would be easier than trying to cut it after its been formed.
All the company would have to do is make a new program with the cimbria coordinates in it for cutting the glass. The mold is already made.
Have you talked to them about it too see if its possible??

Brett

 

[letterman7]

From what I understand, and I'm a little out of the loop with what Dave is doing with the glass, is that automobile windshields are actually cut while they are still in the mold - right after they've been formed, but before they are pulled. Essentially, the edge of the mold is the edge of the windshield - the trim knife simply follows the contour of the mold. To make a Cimbria windshield, an entire new mold would have to be made or, as Warren mentioned, carefully trimmed after the glass has already cooled.

 

[Brett Proctor]

This is what I based my comments on
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg3moEI9V5g]How It's Made-Windshields - YouTube[/ame]

If its incorrect then disregard my comments

Brett

 

[letterman7]

Must have missed that episode; I believe - and I may be mistaken - that the windshields are still using the original "slump" molds from the '70's over in the UK. What the posted video shows are production windshields; ours were never meant to be production on that scale, hence a different production method where a few could be made at a time, rather than thousands. Slump molds are polished stainless forms in the correct shape where the glass is layed over, then heated until it essentially melts and attains the shape of the mold.

 

[Hogwit]

My Cimbria came with a windshield (probably a Sterling windshield though) and if I do decide to build the car, I would either need to get that trimmed to fit, or my car modified... (if it is a Sterling windshield) however if I do build this car, I would want a spare...

 

[ydeardorff]

I recently stopped by Gregg's house on a road trip and got to see one of Daves new windshields laying in its new home, not glued down yet.

One thing Gregg pointed out to me is its not a perfect fit. The upper corners are about 1/4" smaller than the stock windshield indent on the body on the top.

So if anyone is planning to do this with their Cimbra, they need to know this.

 

[farfegnubbin]

Thanks, Yaughn. That's important to know.

Ultimately, the perfect confirmation/experiment would be to put Fuzz's Cimbria windshield directly onto a new Sterling windshield and then directly trace one onto the other. Another thing I thought of doing is to ask Fuzz if I could take some dimensionally stable, thin sheet goods (like a big sheet of aluminum) and make a perfect tracing of his windshield onto that. We could then send that out to whatever manufacturer needed the pattern.


Brett,

Thanks for posting that clip. Very interesting!

Based on the texture of the finished edges of these windshields, I always thought that they formed the windshield first, made it a little over-sized, then ground it back to where they needed it. If they did in fact make the Sterling windshield that way, it stands to reason that it wouldn't be difficult for them to simply use a different template for the final trim. Or, if they pre-trim them, then they could trim them to Cimbria specs first, like you were saying.

I think they use that "slump" technique, though. What I don't know is whether they cut them while they're still hot, like Rick said, or whether they grind them to the correct outline after they are cooled, like I always pictured it. It occurs to me that I don't know how I originally got that idea in my head (regarding how they are manufactured). If they do it with a "knife" while hot, then I'm worried that if might be more difficult to modify.

Dave said that his installer had a simple, hand-held diamond grind wheel. That intsaller said that any production car's windshield might be off a little and often needs to be trimmed in such a manner. Dave said the installer said he should have no trouble trimming up to about 1/4 inch.

But I don't think the installer fully appreciates that this would have to be done around the entire perimeter. And, if you can't find or choose not to use that C-channel of rubber, then the edge will be seen which means that it would have to be 100% perfect or it would look like ass.

So the saga continues!!

I'm 90% confident that we will find a solution. Someone, somewhere has to have the correct CNC mill to make this work, perhaps with a diamond blade, perhaps with some high tech extreme-high-pressure-water-and-slurry system. It has to exist. We're still looking!

 

[BossHog]

Hello farfegnubbin, thanks for that fine article on the windshield problem. I recently purchased my new windshield for my SS and plan to tackle the installation this winter after i fabricate a steel frame to bond to the fiberglass around my winshield opening on the inside. I'm going to run steel from the frame down the front door openings to the pan and rear door openings from the pan up and across the roof and down the center of the roof to the new frame around the windshield opening. This will strengthen the entire roof structure and also get the roof back up to the correct factory height. I just can't believe how flimsy the roof feels when i push upwards on my cracked glass, it moves up and down about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch. My doors should also fit properly after the modifications are complete. My local interior shop said they can re-make all the pading for the pillars and roof to hide everything. I'll post pics once i get started on it in a couple of months.
Your information on the windshield problem has been very helpful and i'm going to talk with one of my local hot rod shops about cutting the glass down to size as they frequently have to cut glass down for chop top rods. We'll see if they're willing to tackle working on a thousand dollar piece of glass.
Thanks again for taking the time to do the comparrisons.

 

[kruzer52]

You can add me to the list of people needing a windshield for a Cimbria.

 

[delbertinie]

I have a good windshield but I would feel much better about driving it if a replacement windscreen is available. As low as our cars sit picking up rock chips or cracks are a high concern of mine. I might buy one as a spare.

thanks Dale

 

[delbertinie]

any up dates yet on availability?

 

[letterman7]

Don't hold your breath, Dale. If new glass is made, it will be quite a while before it's available.

 

[cimbriassracing]

This thread may be dead but ive owned my cimbria for about 7 years now. its been an amazing journey rebuilding it. right now it is in the body shop and about 2 weeks ago we had to pull the windshield...i left the room because my nerves were strung out beyond belief because i new the rarity of the piece of glass. needless to say we got it out ok and its sitting in the corner waiting to be re-married to the car. when or if it is possible i would love to have an extra for the peace of mind. i pray and ask for you prayers that between now and the finish of my project that we do not need a replacement sooner than necessary.


as always guy thanks for you information i am sure that my car would not be what it is today with out you!

cant wait to get it done and travel to see a few of your projects!

thanks!
alex

 

[letterman7]

I guess I should update the thread here as well. New glass was made for the Cimbria; I saw the crate and one of the new pieces first hand a couple weeks ago. But it isn't perfect - the curvature isn't right at the top of the glass and leaves quite a gap between the glass and the bodywork. Fuzz is working with the manufacturer to correct the problem... which leaves him with a crate full of unusable glass, unfortunately!

 

[Chunkstyle]

i'm very sorry to hear that the glass came out wrong -- i don't know fuzz, but have read about his glass project, and have a lot of respect for him for both his kindness & his cojones in attempting it. it's a real drag when something doesn't turn out as expected -- especially when you're taking a big $$ gamble.

what went wrong with the glass? a problem of the manufacturer's? did he end up having to eat the cost of the glass & mold himself?

how big a gap is there at the top? workable?

 

[cimbriassracing]

Ouch!!! that painful to the ears...but that's amazing that someone is working on it! i just hope this "fuzz" doesn't give up! by the sounds of it he's got a list of buyers lined up

 

[farfegnubbin]

I know Fuzz personally and can attest to the fact that this is a guy who doesn't give up until he succeeds. He has wanted to find a solution for the Cimbria windshield sourcing problem for many years, and I really admire the fact that he finally just simply shelled out his own money to take the chance on reproducing it.

Last I heard, he had taken both his actual windshield and the reproduction windshield back to the manufacturer who is now working on another mold for it. We don't know the source of the error. The glass is simply a little too bowed along the top. The mold should have been an exact copy of an original/stock windshield (which I have seen for myself fit perfectly on his car.) But the first copy was a little off. Anyway, I don't know the details of the fabrication and cooling process, but apparently they are currently tweaking it. This is a company that makes some really exotic, high-end glass, though. My guess is that, within a month or two, we'll have a successful copy.

Now, that said, I know that Fuzz was a little frustrated that he tried to feel out interest for the windshield beforehand but that nobody seemed to want one after the fact. (At least, that is what he fears. And I worry, too, that it is a legitimate concern.) He knows that he isn't likely to ever make a penny on them, but I know he was hoping to slowly gain back at least a small portion of his investment for his own windshield. His mark-up on the windshield is only very slightly above the raw cost of production (NOT including the mold.)

When we finally get confirmation on a perfect reproduction, I'd say that any Cimbria owner out there should do whatever you can to get one of these. The way it's gonna work is that Fuzz will own the mold and the manufacturer will not make another one (ie, it will be an exclusive reproduction mold). There will probably be very few windshields made, so this will be a very, very rare chance to get a new Cimbria windshield. Yep, they're gonna be upwards of $1,500 dollars. (Gulp.) But -- without getting into private conversations -- their cost of production is very close to what Fuzz will need to ask for them...again, not even considering the mold.

I have two Cimbrias and neither has a broken windshield, but I'm gonna get at least one spare when they're available. Do I really want to spend $1500 for something that I don't even really need at the moment? Not really. But this is the one and only time these will ever be reproduced, as far as we know. It's been 25-30 years since they've been available.

Anyone who owns a Cimbria: Think seriously about actually acting on these windshields. At some point over the next 3-6 months you are going to get what is perhaps your one and only chance ever to grab a necessary windshield (or a spare as the case may be).

I have no stake in the venture. I just think Fuzz is a good guy, and I love the fact that he has taken a risk in order to solve the one huge, classic, seemingly insurmountable problem for Cimbria Owners. *thumbs up*

 

[delbertinie]

We cimbria owners realize that this is probably a once in a life time chance but at the same time it is going to take me a year to save up that kind of change.
I think it would be a good idea to leave the window of opportunity open for lets say a year before the orders are placed, so the the low budget guys like me can scrape it together.
It would be easier for some of us to commit if we could make payments on the glass and have it delivered when its paid for in full.
I really think you would get the orders you need if payments could be made.

I'm not poor but eating and a roof over my head has to come first.*kicked my butt*

 

[farfegnubbin]

We cimbria owners realize that this is probably a once in a life time chance but at the same time it is going to take me a year to save up that kind of change.
I think it would be a good idea to leave the window of opportunity open for lets say a year before the orders are placed, so the the low budget guys like me can scrape it together.
It would be easier for some of us to commit if we could make payments on the glass and have it delivered when its paid for in full.
I really think you would get the orders you need if payments could be made.

I'm not poor but eating and a roof over my head has to come first.*kicked my butt*

I know. I think we're all in a similar boat; these windshields are so expensive that it is not just a casual investment. It's not just pocket change. For many of us, this windshield will be almost as expensive as the car itself.

Again, I have no vested interest in the sale of Cimbria windshields. I'm not trying to scrape up orders. I'm not the one making them.

I guess my point is to try to encourage the people who need a windshield to try to make it a relatively high priority. It's all too tempting to fall into the trap of assuming that, just because a rare part is being made, it'll probably be made next year, too. It's human nature to put it off because, for many of us, we can rationalize that we won't need that "'til later." I suppose that the reason I'm trying to light a fire that enables a few people to grab one is because it seems to be such a miracle that we have access to them again. A few of us out here have been trying to solve this problem for the better part of a decade. Financially, there's no really good reason for this manufacturer to have helped to reproduce it. I think they are doing it because they like the reputation of being able to solve difficult sourcing problems for rare windshields and they like rare cars. Fuzz shelled out quite a bit of money, and the manufacturer was hoping to get maybe 10 or 20 orders. But everyone's finances are tight and virtually no orders came through yet. I'm worried that, if the manufacturer doesn't have some pay off for their efforts, we might lose the resource.

Yes...certainly...please everyone DO buy food and shelter first. But, like...perhaps think of it like this: If you are fortunate to have a chance to put $1500 into wheels OR an engine OR a paint job OR anything else on your Cimbria over the next 6+ months, I would say buy a windshield just so you have it. They won't stop making engines or wheels or paint. But I'm worried that we might not always have a source of windshields.

Who knows; perhaps the manufacturer will be happy to make one or two per year, on demand, forever, in which case this whole conversation is unnecessary and owners can get them whenever they need them. But it just makes me nervous counting on that.

What would be cool is if there was somebody who could buy a pile of them just to have them available for later. But there isn't much money in replacement parts for old kit cars, so unfortunately I don't think that's gonna happen.

Anyway, to everyone out there: My point isn't to create a sense of guilt or arbitrary pressure to buy a windshield. I guess it's just weird for me as an insider to have been contacted by many, many Cimbria owners over the years who are desperately looking for a replacement windshield and who would "do just about anything" for a new windshield. And soon we should have that opportunity, and I just hope people will be able to find a way to act on it.

Yeah, it's a pretty big chunk of money, but our projects will thank us later.